Robert Mills
Welcome to the Fourth Wall Content Podcast. I'm your host, Robert Mills.
Actors address the audience directly by breaking the fourth wall in theatre and film. This podcast explores the fourth wall in a different sense.
We’ll share techniques, strategies, and tactics to forge meaningful connections with audiences, users, and stakeholders.
Our conversations with experienced and innovative content, UX and research practitioners will uncover the details of real projects with lessons learned along the way and outcomes of the work too.
Each episode will provide you with practical insights and actionable takeaways to help you meet user needs, connect with customers in a genuine way, or engage stakeholders meaningfully. Let’s get to it.
Hello and welcome back to episode 11 of the Fourth Wall Content Podcast. And I'm very excited as always with my guest today. And that is Dr. Lisa Matthews. Lisa is a senior content designer at Nexus Digital. She built her first website using Windows 1995 and started her tech journey as a junior composite designer in a local government art department during the shift from traditional drawing boards to Apple Macintosh computers. As a UK creative writing academic, Lisa publishes research, presents papers and has lectured and taught in a variety of UK universities. She's published six books with her seventh, The hauled-up notebooks due in Autumn 2025. She's contributed to and co-edited a number of books and websites on eco poetics and creative writing, and is currently working on a new content design imprint Poetech Press that will allow her to share some of her content design experiences and methods. Lisa is a divergent writer and at Nexer Digital she's an accessibility ambassador working in agile and multidisciplinary teams, collaborating with a diverse range of national and international clients to make great products and services in her spare time. Lisa is part of the Macclesfield Art Collective, Studio 27B, where she works with text poetics and sculpture. Lisa, one an outstanding bio. I hope I did it justice and welcome to the podcast.
Lisa Matthews
Hi Rob. Thank you. Yeah, it's great to be here.
Robert Mills
It's great to have you and you and I, we've chatted before, we've known each other for a while, and when I said to you about coming on the podcast, you thankfully said yes and you straight away said, I want to talk about accessibility in digital design, and I was so pleased that you chose that subject. So I've based my questions around observations I've made working with different organisations and some of the scenarios and opinions I see related to accessibility. But I'm going to start with the same question that I always start with and it's who is the audience or the user that's going to be the focus of the conversation or the project that you and I will be talking about today?
Lisa Matthews
So I think basically this, even though accessibility I would argue is for everybody and everybody is impacted by it and should care about it. I think in terms of this conversation, there's probably two strands of audience that I can think of. I think the first one is anybody who works in digital design and development, whether that is in an agency or as a consultant or within a particular organisation or business, anybody who's basically in the business of creating digital product services and experiences. I think they are really an audience for this conversation. And the other audience I can think of is really anybody who runs a business or organisation and who is committed to better user experience, to creating digital products that are easy to use that hit their business goals and what they want to achieve as businesses or organisations. So that can be anything from commercial to charity to smaller organisations, so it's anybody who runs a business or an organisation and who has a digital footprint, then you're using digital products to have conversations with your users. I think those people are impacted by accessibility and there's a good case for creating a more inclusive digital world because it makes good business sense as well. So those are the two strands of audience that I can see in terms of our conversation today.
Robert Mills
Love that. Thank you. I love that it’s the people who need those services to be more accessible for their users and audiences, and then the people who are actually responsible or involved in building and creating those more accessible experiences. It kind of leads nicely into one of the main observations I've seen across different size organisations, different sectors. It's being common across very different kinds of scenarios and things, and that's who is actually responsible within an organisation for accessibility. I think it's easy to think maybe it's someone else's responsibility, but should there be an owner? If so, who is that? Or perhaps that responsibility should be shared. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Lisa Matthews
It's a really great question because again, it's one of those things where if it was something very niched or it was only applicable to a certain amount of people, and I think that it's a slightly less complex question to answer, but I think in terms of a big organisation, so maybe if we go down the road of the two types of audiences, so in a, say I run a big organisation and I'm involved in producing products and services for audiences or users, then ideally you have an accessibility team or a lead the way you would have ideally a C-suite would be, I would say would be the thing to have that you would have a Chief Accessibility Officer, so CAO, the way you have a CFO or a COO. So I think at that sort of high level, but then in a bigger organisation as well, to have people throughout the organisation be aware and that there's different levels of ownership, that there's certain things we all commit to as employees, we have ground rules and things that we know we commit to.
And that ideally what you want to get to is that everybody is aware and sort of has self ownership but also understands that there are procedures and because it's not a job that one person can do, you can't fix accessibility on your own. It's kind of a team sport, but it's individually experienced, which I think is where some of the tension lies.
So I think it all depends on the size of the organisation and the situation you find yourself in. But to me, if anybody is aware of what I call the A word of accessibility, then they're already showing awareness that accessibility is an issue and it's important. I think just asking the question, how can we do better? How can we make our products and services and digital experiences more accessible and more inclusive for more people? I think that's already a really good start. So it's kind of from there being C-suite right down to, so you can have individual training baked in for accessibility, so if you're onboarded, you onboard staff with accessibility as well. So I think it all depends on the situation, but awareness and then adapting accessibility roles to the organisational project is a good place to start.
Robert Mills
In your bio, it says that at Nexer Digital, you're an accessibility ambassador. Can you just talk a bit around what that means and what you do as a part of that?
Lisa Matthews
Yeah, yeah, because at Nexer Digital, we’re a UK digital design agency and we specialise in accessibility. And actually it's the reason that I wanted to join Nexer, the Nexer team because I ran my own content consultancy for quite a long time called Poetech, and I worked on my own and with smaller groups of associates when I was doing projects. I always thought if I stopped doing that, that I'd want to work in a place that was committed to accessibility.
I was very aware of Nexer’s passion for and chops and deep roots in accessibility because it's been a very hard thing to start to get baked into the world of digital design and development. And so at Nexer, we've got an accessibility team, which is headed by my colleague Danny Lancaster, and they're an amazing group of people who are absolute experts at accessibility and have been doing accessibility training and development work and research for a long time and know way more about it than I do.
I'm a content designer and I'm in the content design team because I’m a words and communications person and the ambassador role is a relatively new one. It's to help us to join up together and have in our different disciplines so that there'll be one, there'll be an ambassador also in the interaction design team in the research team. So across our design team, all the different disciplines, there will be an accessibility ambassador and it's for us to be more holistic, for us to be more aware, to share knowledge. I'm still a content designer, but I help out in the accessibility team and bring a content design angle to that if you like, really everything on the web in terms of users is content. Users don't care how we make digital products, I just want to use them. So I think at Nexer, having all the disciplines involved in accessibility work is something that's really exciting to me.
Robert Mills
I think that's a great structure, having an ambassador within all those different disciplines, as you said, to make sure all those voices and expertise are reflected in those conversations and a decision.
Lisa Matthews
Exactly. I think it's a great move forward in terms of our company, and it's such a good idea because we all come at it from very different points of view and have very different challenges ourselves and experiences and professional knowledge and experience as well. So I think it's a really good move and I'm really excited to be part of it because also it's accessible content is something that I really care about, so it's like the sweet spot for me in terms of accessibility and content together. I get to do both of those things so that it's a real privilege and I'm really excited about it.
Robert Mills
It really supports your previous answers well around who's responsible and everybody's responsible in some way depending on their role, their expertise, their knowledge, the things they care about, their own personal experiences. So it really backs that up as well.
The other sort of scenario I've seen time and time again is that when people, teams, organisations think accessibility, they think making sure our website works well with a screen reader, I see that a lot and of course that is part of it. but it's also certainly not all of it. So I wondered if you could describe or explain accessibility in digital design from your experiences and the work that you do.
Lisa Matthews
I think it is a really good observation and it's understandable because maybe that's one that's easy to perceive straight away. And it's interesting, the word perceivable is very important in accessibility. But there's a whole, it's like everything else, isn't it? Once you start to look at it and unpack it a bit more, you start to see that there's differences there. It's not a one size fits all or it's not a catchall term. And I think of how we divide accessibility up in a way, if you like. We've kind of got some different sort of strands and the screen reader one comes in that sort auditory visual speech that those sort of accessibility barriers that are cognitive and neurological or to do with audio or visual stuff. And that's one sort of area those, that's an accessibility area, which is very real and it's good that people see that and are aware of it because it helps open the door on the others.
But there's also, there's different ones that are, it can be a situational accessibility need. So the site, basically you're in somewhere bright where you can't read your screen. It's not that you have blindness or anything like that. It's there's a situational temporary issue. And that temporariness can also go to things like say you've got a good example is if you've got a broken arm and you have to do things with a sling and with one arm that you could usually do with two, all of a sudden you have a temporary accessibility barrier. So there's that as well. It can be something which seems simple like losing your glasses, but if you need your glasses to do day-to-day things and be safe and all those things, then you've certainly and suddenly got an accessibility barrier. So we've got accessibility that we know about around the sensors if you like, and cognition and neurological things.
Then we've got things like the bright room and then we've got the say you break your arm, but there's also things like different devices. Can you use a device? Have you got a device? Access to devices is one thing. So there's all sorts of different devices, different surfaces, smartwatches, tablets, all that sort of stuff. Those can cause access issues as well.
Then there's two that I think are interesting. They both use the word bandwidth. They say you're in an area where you've got very slow internet access and that could be in a community or in a geographical location, or it could be sort of you're in somewhere where there's a lot of people sharing the internet, and so you don't have that access to and bandwidth that somebody else does. There's that sort of physical to do with the cables if you like and the technology.
I use bandwidth to be sort of my neurological bandwidth in terms of if I've got a lot going on, if a person's thinking about a lot of things, they've got a lot of stuff happening, their own personal bandwidth can be really impacted. So that one day you could do something really well, read a piece of content or go through a user flow and sign up for something and do that really easily, and on another day where your cognitive load is really high, that could be a real struggle for you. So this kind of, in a way, there's a variety. I think it's about half a dozen of them where there's a lot of differences in accessibility. And what I love about being at Nexer is that not one person is an expert in all of this. We all come together to talk about it, but we have the experts in the team if you take the lead on that and bring all their knowledge to bear on all the different types of accessibility.
So the A word as I call it is, yes, it's about accessibility, helping people feel included and making sure everyone can do what they need to do. But actually once you dig into it, there's lots of different parts to it. And I'd say probably five or six different facets really that's the different types of accessibility.
I had the privilege of witnessing user testing where users, I've seen in real time screen reader users using a digital product or service. And it's an amazing thing and a real privilege to see somebody navigating and using say a website with a screen reader because it's so utterly different to the way I do it. And it really helps you to appreciate how different people have different experiences of digital content and digital products. So the screen readers, the start, because as I say, you can see it, but when we start do testing with different types of accessibility challenges, it just widens your awareness as well. So I think it can only be good to start the discussion from the screen reader and take it from there. And it is interesting that you've noticed that because other people notice that too. And once you start to talk about it, you can see a light goes on, it's say, oh, of course. But that's like with everything, if it's not something you've been involved in before, then it's kind of a voyage of discovery in a way.
Robert Mills
Those examples you kind of talked through there with if you break your arm, if you lose your glass, I think a lot of people would be surprised at hearing those in relation to accessibility and innocently, as you say, just sort of like, oh yeah, you only know when or when you hearing something. So would be surprised at those examples and having to consider people in those scenarios for accessibility, which kind of comes to this other repeated scenario that I've seen over the years and things. And also other people have talked to me about as well and have seen it as well. And that's around people thinking that people who they have to consider for accessibility are either a small part of their audience or they think it's not their audience at all, so therefore they're not willing to invest in accessibility. What is the business case for accessibility? How can people be persuaded and convinced that it is a priority and it is a necessity rather than something that's sort of if you have time, or if you get to it?
Lisa Matthews
Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, part of my job isn't make business cases every day, but it's something I think about because I think it's a fair question. If you have someone thinking of investing in a digital product, then if you're saying a percentage of your budget should go here, we recommend, I would expect someone to say, well, why? And I think really to be at its bluntest, the answer is, there's roughly about 20% of people at any one time will have some kind of accessibility issue or challenge. And remember, just from what we talked about just previously, there's a lot of different situations. So what you're doing is you're kind of stopping people using your product or service. So to me, if I was creating a physical shop, I would want a door that everybody can use. I wouldn't want a door that stops 20% of my potential customers coming in. I'm not from a business background. So the way I say it is, if I was building a thing, why on earth would I create it where 20% of the people who might want to come in just can't get in because if I go up to a door and I can't open it, I'll just jog on and go somewhere else. So on the most basic level, and the bluntest way I can say it is you're probably missing 20% of potential customers, visitors, users, whatever terminology you want to use for the people who use your digital products, you're kind of stopping them from coming in, whether you know it or not.
You would never build a building like that and say, well, we're going to do this, but actually only about 80% of people will be able to get through the door. I'd say what I want everybody who wants to come through to be able to get through and not have to think about using that door, they just think, oh, that looks interesting. I want to go there. if you've got a digital product and if you make something and people are going to want it, then they need to be able to get to it.
So for me, that's the business case. I always talk about roughly about 20%. And when you explain to people that it's not just screen readers, I think that is a much more realistic figure people to say, oh, yeah, that makes sense to me actually. And so what you do, accessibility is making things as easy as possible for your users. And that to me makes good business sense. So that's how I talk about the business case for accessibility.
Robert Mills
I think a brilliant way of talking about it though, because it's analogy the door to the shop that everybody can relate to. Everybody can have a mental model of that and when you hear that, it's like, well, yeah, why would I want to turn away 20% doors that stop 20% coming in? But I think that's a really great way to have that conversation and just to get people interested or concerned, but in a good way and get them on. I really love that.
Lisa Matthews
I'm sure I can get some breakdowns and some stats for you. There's plenty of insight out there in terms because we see from our clients that people have to go and make a business case to somebody who controls a budget somewhere, and there's people committed to accessibility who need to unlock the funding. So it's a really great question and one that we always want to answer in different ways depending on who we're talking with. Because when you see the numbers, the stark realities when you think about what your market share is are however many users you have a year full on 20%, or you can go down specific route or whatever. We can do specific things for dyslexic people are dyscalculia or whatever it is. So I think the two analogy, using the analogy more narrative side of the making the business case together with the statistics is one of the reasons I love working where I work because I think both are really important actually.
Robert Mills
We’ll definitely link to any resources that you can provide. So let's imagine that that business case has been made and whoever it's been made to, they're ready to improve accessibility and invest in it. The other thing I've seen when there are people in that situation and they're keen to make changes and improvements is that they actually don't know where or how to start. What do you think is a good starting point or what are some practical steps that they can take when they're ready to invest in accessibility?
Lisa Matthews
Yeah, I think that's a great question because it's a big topic and I can see why with the best will in the world, you may really want to do something but just feel so overwhelmed that you don't know where to start. There are some officially recognised guidelines that help to advise anybody who's interested in digital accessibility to make sure that they're compliant and doing the best they can. There's different levels of accessibility. So whenever you talk about accessibility, you'll hear this acronym a lot, WCAG, which is, it stands for Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. And basically it's a set of internationally recognised standards, and they're created by an organisation called the Worldwide WebConsortium, which is often referred to as W three C.
Basically the WCAG, the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are there to answer this very question. And there are big documents. So as a neurodiverse reader, I find them challenging to read, but they're well aware of that. And there's lots of different ways into the WCAG, but actually knowing that there's a set of criteria there really, really helps because there's things you can do yourself straight away to test your content without really having to do anything else. So I think having a look at the guidelines is really useful. All you need to do is look up WCAG, do a Google search, whichever search engine you use, and then you can find them but also there's really great people out there who interpret them and share their work on WCAG. And WCAG is a community, it's an open source thing as well that I look at all the time because they remind me to just think about actually, well, if somebody can't see this content, how can they consume it? If they only use a tablet, does it work for them on that tablet? Will this data in this table work in this format? And so that underneath that acronym and those sort of abstract concepts are some real practical ways to look at your content. And so any organisation, start with WCAG, have a look through, and then just assess what it is that you're doing yourself. And I'm sure most organisations can be iterating and improving all the time.
I think there's not a perfect accessible digital experience because we're all so different as users. But what there is is that if you follow these WCAG guidelines, you'll be well on your way to enabling lots of different types of users to digest and experience your digital products in a way that's best for them. So I would always say start there. And then if it makes great business sense, you're a bigger organisation to get in an accessibility expert because it's the sort of thing, it's not a tick box exercise. It's sort of like you don't do it just once you have to, it's a bit like how you maintain content, you kind of maintain your accessibility because it's such a fast moving area, isn't it, technology, There's always something changing. There's always new software, there's always new, this, that and the other. And so it's kind, it's never doing, it's a bit like's investing in maintaining your content and yet your building and your experience to be the best it can be all the time. We'll go back to the building analogy. It's kind of a bit like you pay for electricity. It's just something, it's an ongoing cost, but it makes sense because it always makes whatever it is you're building better and therefore that makes good business sense and it's good for users.
Robert Mills
Great advice there. Thank you. And you mentioned that there isn't really a perfect accessible digital experience because everybody's different in terms of how they access and use things. So with that in mind, is there anybody out there who you think is doing accessibility well based on your own kind of circumstances and your experiences?
Lisa Matthews
Yeah, yeah, I think you can definitely see things are starting to change a bit because I mean there's, the exemplars in the field are things like GOV.UK and the Government Digital Service, and there's the equivalent in different parts of the world. So there's an Australian equivalent, the Canadian equivalent where the civil service has got design manuals and they're doing really interesting work there to bring some cohesion and some consistency to all of their designs and experiences. There's also places like Estonia that have got, so there's a branch of accessibility and content which is around citizenship. So it's like e-citizenship in Estonia as a country is doing really interesting things and really powerful things with their content and accessibility.
I use a lot of apps now that I didn't used to use and I think anywhere where, I can't think of anywhere that stands out, but I always remember the patterns if you like. So when you use an app and you're onboarding for the first time, you usually have to input some data, you have to see who you are and put passwords and all that stuff. It's where the rubber hits the road really in terms of there being problems. But wherever an app or an experience steps you through something page by page. So rather than having everything in one place, they use progressive disclosure. So there's a lot more, especially apps doing that now. So they're not throwing lots of information at you, lots of tasks to do. It's step by step, page by page. Now when you're designing a thing, having 50 pages to onboard sounds a lot, but actually if it means I make less mistakes as a user, that's what I want and it's what I prefer. So I'm seeing that more now in apps.
I think it's interesting that it's one thing we're interested in accessibility is that it's not about pointing fingers and saying that people don't care or they're doing it wrong. It's like when you think about it, we've got all of these legacy technologies and systems in our big organisations and there smaller organisations as well. So you would, I always go back to these sort of built analogies, but if you imagine sort of London or any big conurbation in the world, each of those big cities, if you like, is a lot of small villages. And at one time before we were less connected and there was less of us and less cars and less everything. Actually living in those villages was a way of being where you didn't need to be connected up and all of a sudden they were needing to be connected and want to be connected up. There's a lot of positive things about the internet of things, and it's all being connected. It's a great thing. The tech's never the issue. But of course all of these small villages, they’re like departments in large organisations and they've got their own ways of doing things and they've got their own legacy systems. It's not that they don't care about accessibility, it's how the hell do you plug all that together? It's like having all different appliances from all different manufacturers and then expecting them all to work in the same way, the won't.
So I think we've got this big challenge around legacy and how we make things fit together. I wouldn't want there to be a one size fits all accessible design because then just everything would be the same. And we are individuals as well as having shared struggles. And I think to me, accessibility is about empowering somebody to experience something in the way that's useful for them, but knowing that there's a baseline of yes, they'll be able to find the content really well. Yes, they'll be able to read it on the screen.
One experience I do say is I to remember it because I always, without exception fill in forms wrong online without exception. I'm not being negative about it. I just always make mistakes. I make mistakes in putting data of my dyslexia. And the only time I haven't done it is on the TV licensing website, which used really interestingly actually, animated models to help move you down the screen. And usually I would say animation's a big no-no, because actually it's an awful thing that it makes my cog load go high. I don't care about the aesthetics, I just want to do the thing. So I don't need animation. But actually they use these modals that move to take me through the experience of that form. And I didn't make one mistake. And to me, that is an example of great design.
Actually another one is, which one is it delivery firm, DPD, their app's really well designed and at the end they've got this bit of animation and it's like a package that looks out and waves at you and smells and it's a little thing, but actually I've used the app seamlessly. It's a good experience and at the end, they do this thing and I look forward to seeing that at the end when I use that app. And to me, that's where you can bring something beautiful and something say more creative into this experience. But really the beauty for me is a user who's challenged with neurodiversity issues and dyslexia is that the beauty is the seamless experience.
And then at the end, if you delight me with this lovely bit of animation, that's great. That's the app I use now. So to me, that also answers the question of what's a business case? Because if I have a choice, I'll always use that app rather than any others. And that's not coincidental because I've used loads of them and most of them I just make so many mistakes, I just take them off my phone. So I'm encouraged to see there's more ways to do things and less of just throwing stuff at the page.
Robert Mills
You brought so many points from the conversation so far together in that last answer. It was great. And I love the kind of building analogy of the door and the paying the electric bill and the different kinds of villages connecting together. I think it's just, it helps me relate to the topic and the way that you're describing it as well. So I think the great ways of talking about it, and you've actually in that last answer there with talking about your own personal experiences and things that you've used and seen, you've really answered the last question, which is I try and put the spotlight back on the guests and say, when have you been the audience or the user? And tell me something that you've interacted with. So I'm going to break all of my own rules and I'm not going to finish with that question. I think the examples you just gave answer that. And rather than kind of ask you for another example, I think we'll finish by talking about Global Accessibility Awareness Day. We're aiming to release this episode on Global Accessibility Awareness Day. And I know you were quite keen for the episode to go out on that day. So is there anything you can tell us about that? What is that day all about? Why is it important? Where can we find out more? What can we share with our listeners about that?
Lisa Matthews
Yeah, it's a big day in the calendar for digital professionals who are committed to and working in accessibility. So as it suggests, it's Global Accessibility Awareness Day and we call it GAAD, so another acronym, but it's a day where we just focus on digital access and inclusion. There's the word awareness in there. So it's to help people to spread the message about what accessibility is, because I mentioned it before. Accessibility is a word that's banded about and it's really as a words person, I would say it's an abstract concept. And when I say that most abstract concepts don't mean anything, or they mean very different things to different people, which is the slipperiness of language.
But where Global Accessibility Awareness Day is important to me is it's about awareness. So what happens is you can sign up to do an event for GAAD, and there's a website, they've got a great website, which is actually an exemplar of accessibility. And you can see how you can get involved. You can get involved and share something if you want to. So there's things happening all around the world and it's organised by the GAAD organisation. What I like about it, this is a whole diverse set of voices involved. So it's like what accessibility means to me, what it means to you, what it means to other people listening to this. They're all wildly and hugely different and that's important about it. The awareness is to embrace that accessibility is important, but it's not a one size fits all. It's as different as we all are. And what I like about GAAD is that that diversity and difference comes through in the way that curate the events and the things that happen so that anybody who's interested, if you're thinking about accessibility and you want to know more, go to the GAAD site and have a look and see what's on. And you can choose something that sort of appeals to you and start there. It's very well established now and it's a great resource. And I see it as a chorus of accessibility voices and experiences and stories, and it's a great way to get more involved and as they say in their own title, build your own awareness.
Robert Mills
We will most certainly link to that in the show notes and all the other fantastic resources that you've mentioned throughout our conversation, which sadly has drawn to a close. That hour flew by.
Lisa Matthews
Didn’t it? I know.
Robert Mills
And there's so many more things I want to ask and I want to know more about all your books and things, but like I say, we'll link to everything. But the most important thing I can say now is just thank you. I know you've just had a month sabbatical, you're only just back in work. You made time for this, but I'm sure you've got a to-do list that's very long. So I really appreciate the fact that you were happy to chat with me. And it's been insightful and it's just been lovely to catch up with you. So thank you so much.
Lisa Matthews
Yeah, no, thank you as well. Yeah, thanks Rob.
Robert Mills
Thank you for listening to the Fourth Wall Content podcast. All episodes, transcripts and show notes can be found ay fourthwallcontent.com. Good luck with your content challenges and I hope you can join us next time. Bye for now.
