Robert Mills
Welcome to the Fourth Wall Content Podcast. I'm your host, Robert Mills.
Actors address the audience directly by breaking the fourth wall in theatre and film. This podcast explores the fourth wall in a different sense.
We’ll share techniques, strategies, and tactics to forge meaningful connections with audiences, users, and stakeholders.
Our conversations with experienced and innovative content, UX and research practitioners will uncover the details of real projects with lessons learned along the way and outcomes of the work too.
Each episode will provide you with practical insights and actionable takeaways to help you meet user needs, connect with customers in a genuine way, or engage stakeholders meaningfully. Let’s get to it.
Hello, and welcome back to the Fourth Wall Content Podcast. I'm very excited, as always, with my expert guest today, who is Jane McFayden. Jane is a senior content designer at DWP digital working on UK government services designed to help millions of people. She's worked on award winning pre retirement services and more recently in service design for bereavement and care. Jane's contributed to the worldwide content design community with her contributions and research for the readability guidelines book and guidance for content crits.
Jane has also co created a cross government collaboration to raise awareness of dyscalculia and provide design guidance with an accessibility poster. That work was launched on the gov.uk design and government blog series and was the most read post in 2022. With a single minded focus on providing user centric design to all who work. Jane is a passionate advocate for accessibility and inclusion.
Jane, welcome to the podcast.
Jane McFadyen
Hi, thank you. Nice to be here.
Robert Mills
I'm so excited. I am a fan of you and your work. This is the first time we've actually spoken though. I feel like we've known each other a long time because of social media connections and, and you've always been a big supporter. Some of the stuff I've done and hopefully vice versa. This is the first time we've actually spoken properly.
Jane McFadyen
Yeah, I know it's really exciting. I know we were just chatting about all the different other people that are on the podcast coming up and I'm really excited because a lot of my content heroes are going to be on as well. So yeah, it's lovely to meet you in person at last seems like a long time.
Robert Mills
Definitely. I think you're a content hero to others, you know, because the work that you're doing which we're going to talk about today is very impressive. I'll start with the question I always start with, which is who is the audience or the user that is going to be the focus of the conversation or the project that we are talking about today.
Jane McFadyen
Okay, so today we'll be talking about how we can design better content for people with dyscalculia or low numeracy. And these are people that might struggle with understanding numbers that we use in our content. And often as content designers, our focus is on the words and plain language, rather than actual numbers. So I'd like to share how we can make them more accessible and inclusive for everyone.
Robert Mills
Amazing. Thank you. And can you explain a little bit about what dyscalculia is and how it can affect people's lives?
Jane McFadyen
Yeah, sure. So, first of all, the actual name is really hard to say and to spell. It's pronounced as dyscalculia, which I had to learn as well. It's actually a form of neurodiversity, which is a specific and persistent difficulty in understanding numbers. There's a quite a wide range of characteristics associated with dyscalculia and these can vary from person to person, of course, but the most common ones are a poor sense of numbers, like estimating numbers, even telling the time, low mental arithmetic skills, high levels of maths anxiety, difficulties with working memory. So things like remembering items on a list, recalling phone numbers, pin numbers, or even keeping count of things. Dyscalculia can also affect spatial awareness, like navigating through a space in and out of a building, for example, or even telling left from right easily.
Many adults might know that they really struggle with numbers, but don't know that they have dyscalculia and they may have spent years avoiding using numbers, hiding or masking their issues or just being told, oh, everyone finds maths hard or, well, I'm rubbish at maths too. And in fact, that's my story. I've always really struggled with numbers so much so that I've hidden and masked and just plain avoided numbers as much as possible. I've got a career in content and words after all. And I discovered I had dyscalculia just last year. So it's likely to be affecting a lot more people than we realise, as it's so under-diagnosed, because it's so unheard of as well.
What we do know is that the British Dyslexia Association estimates that studies into the causes of dyscalculia are about 30 years behind the research into dyslexia. So it's really early days still. And because of that, of course, there's less general awareness in society about it. But what we do know so far is about one in 20 people have dyscalculia as a bit of a comparison. One in 10 to 20 people have dyslexia in the UK, and it's a neurodiversity. And as very often they can co-occur with dyslexia or dyspraxia or ADHD. So it's quite a widespread issue, but very often people don't even realise they're experiencing it.
Very often in our society going through school, it's unacceptable if somebody can't read, but it's understandable if somebody isn't very good with numbers. And we don't really dig down into that. And there's no screening in schools. There certainly wasn't when I was at school or college or university. And so very often it's undiagnosed and it could be a bigger problem than even we know because research is so early days. So yeah, hopefully that gives you a bit of background of what it is and how it affects people.
Robert Mills
It absolutely does. And I am not ashamed to say that I have just been seriously educated. There was so much within that I just did not know. And this is why I knew the work that you've been doing is important but I think it's probably a lot more pioneering than I expected
You also mentioned there a little bit about words and language. And there's a lot of focus on words and using clear language and presenting those words clearly with structure. Less has been written or said about numbers. But it is changing thanks to the work that you're doing and others are doing. Why should services and organisations present numbers clearly? And why should they give as much attention to that as they do the words?
Jane McFadyen
Yeah, great question, actually. Well, it's not just those with dyscalculia that struggle with numbers. In the UK, there are millions of people that would benefit from better design, too. So what we discovered was in 2012, the Department for Business Innovation and Skills did a survey and they found out that low numeracy affects approximately half of working age adults in the UK alone. Now, that's nearly 17 million people. So it's highly likely that your content, your service or organisation will deal with someone who perhaps doesn't understand the numbers you've used in your content that you'd expect them to. And this is really important, especially at the moment when we've got a cost of living crisis that we're all experiencing.
What's really interesting is that just in 2020, the Financial Conduct Authority found that those that had fallen into debt felt it might have been avoided had they understood the options better. Now, that is truly shocking. If people don't understand their options, then how can they understand the consequences? And just last year in 2022, National Numeracy, a brilliant organisation, their research found out that low numeracy is a UK-wide issue and it disproportionately affects disadvantaged communities and literally holds millions of people back.
So it is really, really important. And what's compelling, I think, for me, is that when you think of the concept of accessibility for content, you've probably seen those great diagrams from Microsoft that illustrates designing inclusivity. And it shows accessibility is perhaps permanent. So they show an example of a person with one arm and then temporary, a person with an injured arm or situational, a person with a baby in their arms. And what's really interesting is if you apply that accessible numbers, then it could easily pretty much affect everybody at some point. So, for example, permanently accessibility needs would be somebody with dyscalculia. And a temporary situation might be a super busy person on the phone under pressure. They have to purchase something with very little time to understand the content or maybe more situational.
So, which really resonates with the work that I'm looking at the moment, a bereaved person trying to deal with a dozen different services and changes to circumstances all at once while dealing with a bereavement. So designing for people with permanent accessibility needs for numbers can result in better designs, but actually benefit a larger amount of people and most likely more of your users. So by designing to be inclusive, everyone benefits.
Robert Mills
Yeah, again, some real eye-opening stats within that as well. I mean, really setting the scene for the importance of this. Can you share any examples of content where numbers are a key part of that user experience or of the content itself?
Jane McFadyen
Yeah, yeah. Well, funnily enough, as a content designer working in government, most of our services for the public involve numbers in some way. So this could be paying your tax or checking your state pension, applying for benefit, renewing a passport or even checking your MOT is due. And often our services involve a person having to enter the national insurance number, for example, or a long passport number or a reference number. And sometimes doing this correctly could mean the difference between being able to get in and use that service or not at all.
Then there's the more everyday things in our services like entering or selecting a date or time or an amount to pay. And then there's much more complicated things like understanding what you might need to do to improve your state pension or how to pay your tax correctly and what amount to pay. So more examples of everyday design patterns that can cause problems for people with dyscalculia can include things like copying numbers correctly from one app to another. And this is because recalling numbers correctly can be a bit of a challenge for people with dyscalculia. Entering numbers like pins correctly, reference numbers, passport numbers, even credit card details. Very often they can be transcribed wrong because numbers can actually be visually distorted and mixed up really easily.
We've all seen them on services, those time outs or those countdown timers telling you how much time you have left to do a thing. These can cause undue stress to somebody and add pressure to a situation. Sometimes people with dyscalculia have trouble estimating how much time is left. So all of a sudden the time out of the service that we're halfway through that kind of thing can happen as well. Often on online services, as content designers, we make the content and the words very clear, simple and easy. And then we put numbers in tables with lots of white space and we assume that that's enough. But numbers alone in grids or tables or charts with no explanation of what they mean are problematic because then the ask is on the user to understand those numbers without any context.
Also something which is really interesting is distinguishing between the number zero and the letter O. Now, if you look down on your QWERTY keyboard, O and zero are actually next door to each other. They're really close. And my dad does this all the time typing with his one finger. Always wrong, always inaccurate. And also visually they’re really similar. So they can be distorted again with that visual distortion that can happen for some people. So it can be often transcribed wrong or incorrectly.
And my absolute number one offender for me that I've had personal experience of many times is on a service using numbers to authenticate your identity. You've probably come across those recaptcha tests. Very often you have to count the number of buses in a picture or something random. But I've come across lots of times when schools like to use a maths version of this. Now, these sums or equations, they're not simple for somebody with dyscalculia. They're an actual barrier to access. So please do not use these. Avoid them if at all possible. They're inaccessible for most people anyway. They mean the difference between being able to use something or not for a lot of people.
Robert Mills
Everything you've shared absolutely sets the scene for why organisations and content professionals should be thinking about how numbers are presented. And you just said, don't use that type of recaptcha. Don't do it. What other practical advice do you have for how others can improve how numbers are presented? Not only to better serve those with dyscalculia or low numeracy, but actually improve it for everybody too.
Jane McFadyen
Yeah, brilliant. Well, the really good news, I think, hopefully in our message today is that there are really simple, fairly straightforward ways for how to better present numbers for people with dyscalculia or low numeracy and then everyone benefits. We've got some guidance, which we've created. If it's not possible for people to follow all of our guidance when designing news numbers, you can do as many as possible. Anything helps. So I'll go through them now. They're not too complicated and we can take them one at a time.
So the first one would be rounding up numbers to the nearest whole number. So what we've understood is that research has shown that it's easier for people to understand the content when there are fewer digits on the page. So by simplifying the numbers, by rounding them up, helps reduce the effort it takes to understand your content. And if your content is displaying numbers in an exact amount for money, for example, then decimal points to show the pounds and pence is absolutely fine. That totally makes sense because it shows you accurately the amount that you have to deal with.
The next point is a bit like how we design with language to make sure that we leave space around numbers. And this is because reducing visual stress is important because sometimes numbers can be distorted. So I talked earlier about how often dyscalculia as a neurodiversity can co-occur with different conditions like ADHD. And sometimes that means a visual distortion or dyslexia as well. So because of that, it takes a lot of concentration to read numbers. So hopefully by leaving space, we can avoid overwhelming people with too much content and also try and prioritise the most important information, whether that's numbers or words on the page. Always look at it. Always think about what's the most important message that we're trying to convey in our content.
And then fill in the information that we already have. A lot of us work in digital. So, you know, get the technology to do the heavy list thing instead for people. Don't expect users to repeat or remember numbers correctly. So the act of re-entering and remembering correctly can be challenging, not just for people with low numeracy or dyscalculia, but for busy people, for people that are time poor, for people that are distracted, people that are dealing with other massive life events at the time they're dealing with your service, the bereaved, for example. So get the technology to do the hard work. Make sure that if they've already entered that information in the user journey within your system, play it back. Don't expect them to repeat it for you. So, yeah, that's a really good tip. Let's think about the whole journey.
This is really interesting. Use sentences to add context about numbers. So I described before by simply putting numbers in grids with a lot of white space and making sure that it's accessible and that grid itself or that table can reform out on mobile platforms. It's enough. Think about explaining what those numbers mean. If the numbers are presented sometimes in sentences, perhaps that's easier for somebody to understand the context. There's been some research on utility bills. Now, I don't know about you, but looking at my water bill, what the actual heck, what are all those kilowatts and zeros? And they love telling you a level of detail that actually as a user. Do I need to know that? What I do need to know is how much I have spent and how much I need to pay. So thinking about the context of what those numbers mean for somebody and what they need to do next is really helpful.
Also, we talked before about timeouts and how that can add undue stress. So don't rush people to enter numbers. And also don't assume that people are using the same device to receive a code. You know, there's a great example of my dad who is great online, does his banking online, but he actually uses his computer and but to get the signal, he has to go to the front of his property, wave it around in the air, get his code, walk back to the back of the house, get back into his PC system and then enter that code. So by default, that's going to take him a bit longer. And for somebody who also has got dyscalculia, perhaps those numbers are visually distorted. So they might actually write down the numbers on a piece of paper in a big size and put a strike through a zero so they know that they're putting in the correct number. So that process is going to take longer than 15 seconds. It might actually take somebody longer than 15 minutes. So think about that when we're just, you know, quite merely adding on timeouts to our services. So avoid them if you can at all, or think about extending that time limit if one must be set for security reasons as long as possible. And I think that helps not just people with low numeracy, but it also helps people deal with your service full stock.
And then finally, as much as possible, try and research with your content with people that struggle with numbers. Now, this is a difficult one because I've already described about the issue we have with people with dyscalculia is very often people don't even know they have it. And so how do you research with people if they don't really know they even have dyscalculia? Well, there are some screening questions you can put in front of research participants to understand the understanding of numbers, the feeling about numbers, how if they suffer from mass anxiety, that kind of thing. And that can be a really good indicator of whether they are comfortable or not with understanding numbers. So there are some screening questions out there.
But what I would say is that if you are going to research with people with dyscalculia specifically, but other people that struggle with numbers is that by actually researching with them, you will be making them very stressed. You know, putting numbers in front of me is stressful full stop. So in a research setting, make sure that you're understanding and that you're empathetic to their needs and that you're checking in with them and be respectful of them and their lived experience. Very often they've massed and have hidden this about themselves. And so being in a research setting and talking through that with someone can be quite challenging. So take the time, make sure that they're okay, make sure that they're paid for their time and you respect them by actually being understanding and empathetic. So, yeah, hopefully that gives people enough guidance to go away and also we'll share the link to the poster as well.
Robert Mills
It absolutely does. I mean, that advice is so clear. It's practical. It's actionable. I think it's great as well that it's got the do and the don't, you know, so it makes it even more clear. And as I understand it, that poster was part of a larger body of work and it's been part of a lot of collaboration. Laura Parker and Rachel Malic have been involved in that work as well. There's been some really positive outcomes, not only of the poster, but of, again, that larger body of work. Is there anything you can share about that kind of collaboration, the work and the outcomes?
Jane McFadyen
Yeah, sure, of course. In fact, we learned that the NHS had updated their service manual while I was presenting our work at a service design and government conference. So it was really exciting. What a brilliant day that was. And the update to the NHS service manual is a direct result of Rachel Malic and Laura Parker and myself presenting at various content communities over the last year and talking about designing for people with dyscalculia. And so we started working together in 2022. Laura and I both attended a GDS services week talk with Rachel and she was presenting a talk where she described what dyscalculia was and symptoms. And I'd never heard of it before. It was like a light bulb moment. And I was just like, what? This thing that I've been hiding and being terribly embarrassed about all my life is an actual thing. And I knew Laura anyway. And so we decided to get in touch with Rachel and as it happens, we're all content designers working in the UK government. I'm obviously in DWP digital. Laura's in DEFRA now and Rachel's in HMRC. So thinking about it, we realised we were in a really unique position to potentially help millions of people with the services that we helped design. So we decided to work together to help raise awareness, but also to provide design guidance so that others can help make digital services accessible, too.
So we first started with looking at the symptoms of dyscalculia and how that impacts somebody understanding numbers. And then we worked out what the most common issues were and how design could help improve that understanding. We also reached out and worked with the amazing Dyscalculia Network, who are a brilliant group. We can also give the link to that afterwards in our information, who help people with understanding maths. And they've got a network of tutors throughout the UK and help support people, adults and children with dyscalculia. And through them, we created a focus group and we also consulted with National Numeracy and the Plain Numbers Organisation. So it took months of work.
This wasn't our main job. We were doing it in our spare time and we researched and we collaborated and we iterated to be able to create this accessibility poster. And we really couldn't have done it without a huge amount of help, primarily from Craig Abbott, who is formerly DWP, head of accessibility, absolute hero, who helped us with the design and hosting of our poster and Olly Sweetman, who is a designer in HMRC as well, to actually create the poster. And of course, the permission from the home office who came up with the original accessibility posters who enabled us to actually do that as well. And we're really, really proud to say that it's available to download for anyone to use from the DWP Accessibility Manual.
What's amazing is we've been completely overwhelmed and that our work has made such an impact. And we've had a huge amount of validated feedback from people, other people living with dyscalculia. So it not only shows needs for the design guidance, but it shows it can really make a difference for people. And that has been an amazing experience and really worthwhile.
Robert Mills
I mean, you used the word impact there and that's absolutely what the work’s done. It's had a positive impact on so many people, probably more people than you can quantify. You know, you've had feedback and you've seen some outcomes and that's amazing and deserved. But I would imagine that there's lots of other people who are benefiting from your work and you'll never know those kinds of stories. So what you do understand is incredible by itself. And the story goes beyond that, I'm sure. So I'm really pleased that you gave a shout out there to the other people that are involved. And I'm just pleased that the work that you've done has made that positive change is what we all kind of strive for in our jobs for sure.
And to bring us to a close, I always like to ask the person I'm chatting to to think about when they've been the audience or they've been the user. And to share something that they watched or read or listened to that might have provoked a reaction or stirred in motion and it can be work related or otherwise.
Jane McFadyen
Yeah. I guess for me, do you remember when I mentioned the recaptcha test for validation that my son's school was using? A bit of personal experience here. I mean, that one for me is a huge barrier. A few years ago, and actually this happened just in September when my youngest went to the high school and I had to go through this again. I needed to use recaptcha maths tests to validate my identity because they'd put it in front of being able to pay online for his school trip. And unless I actually got through the validation, I wouldn't be able to go online and my son wouldn't be able to go on his school trip. So it's a physical barrier.
The consequences of this was I couldn't face calling and speaking to a school reception and then explaining why I couldn't do it. I mean, how embarrassing. But also they'd called it on the email, a ‘simple sum’. So, add further insult to it. But this is not simple for somebody with dyscalculia or low numeracy. It's a physical barrier to access your service. So I asked my nine year old then for help. He did it in about two seconds flat. And that's a reality for a lot of people. It's them having to reach out to somebody that they trust enough to be able to help them. And my sons are great. They understand that I'm really good with words, but I'm not brilliant with numbers. And they'll step in and they'll do it.
So more recently, another example is when we've been at the hospital and the receptionist has asked me for my son's date of birth and his date of birth is really quite tricky. There's a lot of zeros and a lot of ones and you always get them back to front. But the look on her face that I couldn't actually say his date of birth, then I got really embarrassed. And actually what happened was my oldest son stepped forward and told her the date. I'm actually going to do this. And it's that casual inference, I think, that everybody should understand numbers and everybody should be able to deal with them. And actually, a lot of people can't for whatever reason. But that has an impact on somebody every single day.
You know, I've been in situations where I've been massively overcharged in a shop and I just didn't spot it because I can't estimate that a couple of things in my basket shouldn't have cost me 80 pounds. It just seems reasonable to me. And then when I get home, my husband is like, why did that cost 80 pounds? So that involves returning to the shop, the petrol in the car to pay for the return journey and the time and the effort that it takes. And I think really we should probably think about this when we're asking people to deal with numbers in our content. And as content folk, we're well aware of the benefits of plain and simple language. And just think about how you could apply that to the numbers in your services and go and have a look at our free guidance. And we've also included the research as to why these design changes help people so that if you need a reason or evidence to build out why you need to make changes, then it's there for you to use as well. We felt that was really important because we've all had those conversations as content people. And when it comes to a change and the reluctance, perhaps from devs, about why we need to change something, we've done the hard work, we've done the research to enable you to have that conversation.
On a more personal level, until really recently, last year, I thought my problems with understanding and using numbers was my fault. So I felt stupid and embarrassed and ashamed about this all of my life. And I've had to struggle, hide my struggles by avoiding situations, missing nights out at work, for example, because I knew they'd split the bill at the end of the night. This is before we had calculators on our phones. Thank goodness for that. Or finding workarounds to situations like asking my son to help with the simple sum from school or just making extra effort in time and mental capacity and being constantly wary of being found out about how much I struggle with numbers. And quite frankly, it's exhausting.
So hopefully being open and honest about how numbers affect somebody with dyscalculia and raising awareness about it within our community, it will help others know that they're not alone, and it's not their fault. And we can design better with numbers to help people. So I think that's probably the best message I can give today, really.
Robert Mills
Well, firstly, thank you for sharing more of your personal experience. I mean, all those examples you've shared have been interesting and eye-opening. But I think when it comes from someone's personal experience, it has that extra level of kind of meaning. So I really appreciate you being so open about that. And secondly, thank you for everything you’ve said, because I genuinely have been hanging on every single word you've said. My awareness has increased a hundredfold in this conversation.
The work that you've done along with the others that we've mentioned and the fact that you're willing to share it and how you're articulating the reasons why the work was needed, the process of doing the work, the outcomes of the work and the benefits, I have no doubt it will be eye-opening to people listening, raise other people's awareness and continue to have the positive impact and change that the work so far has done. So 100 percent mean this when I say how grateful I am that you spent time talking with me today about this topic. Thank you.
Jane McFadyen
Thank you so much for inviting me as well. Obviously, it's a really personal thing. But as you say, when you understand the impact it could have and the simple things we can do with our content design, I think we've all got a really easy way to improve and make things more accessible and inclusive for so many people, not just those that struggle with the impact. Not just those that struggle with numbers, but those at a time poor, situational, and they need to do a thing really quickly. We can make it easier for everyone. And that's what I find so exciting and opportunistic about this. So yeah, great, brilliant chat and thanks for having me.
Robert Mills
You're more than welcome. And as you said throughout all of those great resources and the additional information, we'll link to that in the show notes so people can get straight to the poster, get to the organisations that might be able to offer further guidance and help if they need it and so on. So yeah, we'll make sure that happens. But thank you so much Jane for chatting to me today.
Jane McFadyen
Thank you. Thank you very much.
Robert Mills
Thank you for listening to the Fourth Wall Content podcast. All episodes, transcripts and show notes can be found ay fourthwallcontent.com. Good luck with your content challenges and I hope you can join us next time. Bye for now.
Support for Dyscalculia
The Dyscalculia Network
National Numeracy
The difference between dyslexia and dyscalculia
