Robert Mills
Welcome to the Fourth Wall Content Podcast. I'm your host, Robert Mills.
Actors address the audience directly by breaking the fourth wall in theatre and film. This podcast explores the fourth wall in a different sense.
We’ll share techniques, strategies, and tactics to forge meaningful connections with audiences, users, and stakeholders.
Our conversations with experienced and innovative content, UX and research practitioners will uncover the details of real projects with lessons learned along the way and outcomes of the work too.
Each episode will provide you with practical insights and actionable takeaways to help you meet user needs, connect with customers in a genuine way, or engage stakeholders meaningfully. Let’s get to it.
Hello. And we've made it to episode 10. 10 feels like a special number and so it's fitting that I also have a special guest. Let me introduce him. Rich Prowse is the director of practice at Content Design London. He has almost 20 years of experience in content, product and service design roles. Previously he led teams at the University of Bath and is currently writing a book on designing for students. He also hosts a podcast with the same name. We're definitely going to get to that later on, but for now Rich, welcome to the podcast.
Rich Prowse
Hey Rob, it's lovely to be here today and yeah, I'm very excited to have a chat.
Robert Mills
So excited. I mean you and I, we go way back. We are friends as well as colleagues and peers and so we often check in and chat and keep in touch, but now there's a big microphone and a record button. It feels a bit different to our usual chat.
Rich Prowse
It does feel a bit tense. I'm like, oh, there's a microphone.
Robert Mills
We'll be fine. We'll be fine.
Rich Prowse
Yeah we will be.
Robert Mills
I’ll be fine because you are here and you know, you could talk about anything and it would be knowledgeable and insightful and helpful and all those things. But I'll try to keep some focus on the conversation. So who is the audience or the user that is going to be the focus of the conversation or the project that you and I are going to be talking about today?
Rich Prowse
I'm going to be speaking about students, both higher and further education is kind of my continuing passion because of my background as being someone who was first generation to university and the experience I had and how transformative it is and was at the time.
Robert Mills
As I say, we've known each other for a lot of years now
Rich Prowse
A lot. We don't even count
Robert Mills
Enough years and I got to know you through your work in higher ed and your previous roles and we've been at the same kind of higher ed focused content conferences and things like that. So I'm pleased that this is your topic because when I think of designing content for students, it’s you I think of, you're the kind of go-to for information. And so I always feel that you are somebody that has a really good handle on the landscape across higher ed and where things are maybe working well and where there are challenges and as you say, it's your passion and that comes across in the work that you do and the things that you share. So maybe we can start there and then get a bit more specific and as a conversation goes, but in the present day, are there any challenges that you are seeing higher ed is facing at the moment?
Rich Prowse
Yeah, it's a really interesting space at the moment. So I get the opportunity to still speak to people in the sector, which I really enjoy and also occasionally come into contact with the sector through my work. The themes, I don't think they've changed that much in the time that I was in higher education and now. These organisations are huge, not as large as some multinational companies that I may come into contact with nowadays, but they're still big organisations which are very complex. There are challenges around the digital estate. There are also challenges around how do you involve stakeholders in the design of the product services, the content that you are going to be delivering, how do you involve students and how do you do that in the right way.
It's not as just as simple as going out and saying, Hey, the students are here. Or what used to always be said to me was, oh, you've got a captive audience, that must be great. It's a lot more nuanced than that and a lot more complex than just having students on your doorstep. And actually the pandemic changed some of that as well. And then I think really what's more acute now than ever really is how do you do what is needed in a really resource constrained environment. One of the things that people often wrongly assume is that universities have lots of money. Resources are really constrained in universities.
Actually what's not properly understood or well known by most people is that actually not, those fees often don't cover the entire cost of a course and actually it's offset against other courses. So understandably it's much easier to deliver a social science based course than it is a lab or practice based course. So yeah, it's a really tough and challenging environment and one that doesn't have the same focus or attention, like working in government or working in health. There's GDS and NHS. Higher education doesn't get that same focus. But actually it's an important part of provision of the services that government provide, albeit indirectly because obviously they are technically private organisations,
Robert Mills
The challenges you listed there individually, they're quite a lot to contend with, but when you bring all of those into one organisation and the word you used persists. So the fact that they're there and they continue to be there even if they maybe ebb and flow and things like that, but that's a lot of challenges for anybody to face at any given time. And it was really interesting the things you mentioned there, the specifics of those challenges and the myth around unis, universities have got more money than they need and it's easy, the students are out there and they're on your doorstep and things and that's not the case. And also additional in the work that I've done in higher ed, largely through collaborating with you in ways but also in other kind of projects and work, the fact that universities have to be compliant with their content and they're dictated by milestones for deadlines when people can apply and clearing in the UK and on the content side, deadlines for getting prospects done and working in silos and there's just so much there. As somebody who's been in that environment and in a really kind of important role actually in your previous role, you've been in that environment, you've experienced all of those challenges firsthand. This may be a hard question, but is there any one piece of advice or one thing to keep in mind to even begin to sift through those challenges and try to make progress in terms of content and UX and the student experience?
Rich Prowse
That's a big question. Being outside the sector now I've got a little bit more perspective than when you are in it. You are very much in the moment and like you've said, what probably isn't well understood is that higher education is quite a highly regulated environment. In the past when I started out back, I think it would've been 2003, it wasn't so regulated. Now it's much more regulated and they're much more stringent controls over how you communicate to students about courses. If there was one lesson I have learned is that working together is key. You are not an island on your own, you are a set of islands if you want to use that analogy of the organisation being siloed.
What is important to success is that you need to learn how to build bridges between those silos and also be realistic that those attempts are not always going to be successful. I would be the first to admit that not everything I ever did or the team I led always did was a success, but that's fine, that's part of learning and one of the biggest challenges was how do we connect to people who have different roles from us. So for example, people who are academics, they have very different priorities and also people who are colleagues. There's a terrible term used in universities, professional services. I learned that you've got to work together, that communication is key, but also acceptance that you're not always going to be successful at that because people are people, they have different priorities and often parts of the organisation have different priorities as well from you.
Robert Mills
The people element is always challenging even when people are on board with things and really you have the buy-in, it's still challenging. You mentioned conflicting priorities and things like that, but I suppose the other audience that you need to connect to as well as the internal audience of people that you're working with is the students. And again, you mentioned it's just not as easy as having students on your doorstep. You still need to engage with them and build relationships. And I suppose higher ed is competitive. So, why is it important to put students at the centre of the design process?
Rich Prowse
It's really easy in a large organisation to forget who your users are. And this is universal. Higher education often likes to think it's special. In fact, most organisations share common challenges and one of them is they sometimes forget their users. Not intentionally. I don't think that's ever by intent, but it's more by action because the organisation is moving in a very particular way. It has a very particular focus it needs to deliver.
The problem is if you don't put students at the centre of that process, you're not going to design product services and the content that supports them in a way that will work for them. And actually this is really important and what's not fully understood is that the kind of product services and content that the students access are tied up in student success and the sense that actually there is representation that they have been heard and thought about in that process. I always find these words difficult because I don't think they adequately describe or reflect really any kind of experience. It feels just a really clunky set of words, but that's the words we have in human-centred design. So we're just going to have to use them I think.
One of the things that always really makes me angry is support report tools. A little bit back, there was a lot of dialogue around how students were reporting more negative aspects of being at university, how they were being supported. And so a lot of time was spent putting together some support and report tools. Some are great but a lot of them are terrible. They are very functional forms and actually if you have been attacked, I always look at them and I think if I was in that position, maybe I would want to speak to someone, maybe I want to be heard. It's those really important points like the support and report tools where problems surface the most or often when the organisation is challenged in ways it wouldn't necessarily expect.
So for another good example of that is the experience I had just before I left. How a student wants to present themselves to the world is really important. It's who you are. And I remember there being a long conversation about trans students and what was really interesting was that the university really was sensitive to the fact that we needed to better understand the needs of students, but actually in this case the systems weren't there, couldn't be flexed in the way that needed. And then actually that created a wider conversation in the university about the best way to move forward. So I guess what I'm saying is we need to put students at the centre of things because they will help guide us and give us the answers that we need. But that needs to be done in a really thoughtful and considered way. And often these conversations surface the difficult situations where actually there's a lot of emotion involved because actually that's the breaking point where I guess what's the best way to put it? Where the system that's been developed over decades comes into contact with the reality of the world and that's when it begins to break.
Robert Mills
The things that really stood out to me there were even the most, well-intentioned people can sometimes be so limited by the technology around them and the process as you say, systems and that's frustrating when you know things can be better and should be better and you want them to be better, but actually there's only so much you can do with the things you've got around you to help work and support that work. And the other thing that really was rattling through my mind then when you were answering that question is the impact of the internal experience, as in within an organisation, has on the external experience. So while students probably don't care about the process that goes on in university, it's that process that produces an outcome which is their experience.
Now, again, knowing what I know about you and the previous work that you've, you've always been very good at sharing your work, especially in that role at University of Bath. So I learned a lot about your work over the years and I know you were certainly working hard to put the students at the centre of those experiences and with great success as well I think. So could we maybe talk a little bit about that role and some of the work you did there? I know that you built something called Typecase, so maybe we can talk about that and how actually what that is first of all and then how that actually helped to improve that user experience and that student experience be some of the kind of related processes and practices around it.
Rich Prowse
So first thing to say, I stand on the shoulder of giants, I would always say I'm the custodian of that system. I do apologise if I get dates wrong. I reached that age where I'm like, is that 20 years ago? It was like last week to me, but I think it was about back in 2016 with Ross Ferguson under his leadership and I was part of that team and I learned so much in that time with him and his careful and considerate mentoring, coaching and also the opportunity to work with some of the most talented people I've ever had the opportunity to work with.
When it became my turn, we built on that legacy. But at the heart of that idea and what developed further out of that idea was that in order to deliver a good experience for students, we needed to create a better experience for the people who were authoring it.
And what's really interesting is, and this is why I got so interested in service design at the time, was that as a content designer, content strategist, I've had lots of titles in my time. The thing that always kept cropping up again and again was that content can't fix a bad service, it could only slightly improve it. One of the tools that we had at the time before we built Typecase was not a very good CMS, it did its job, it did it well at the time it was built for, but actually we were really beginning to encounter problems with it. And one of the big things was it was just a blank page and with that blank page came all sorts of things. So I distinctly remember when we did the original kind of audit of the website, we weren't looking at pages. Because as I said we had about a hundred thousand content items at the time, my team actually did audit all those pages. I am eternally grateful for their patience doing that. I did learn a lot about content auditing, just let's not do that again. It's not that useful because actually in a content website that size, by the time you get to the end it's like you have to start again.
To cut, long story short, we realised that in order to create better content we'd need to create a kind of structured editor which would guide authors through the process because actually the majority of people in universities, and this comes back to resourcing and actually most organisations don't have enough content people. They should, but they don't, were not content designers, they were not content strategists, they weren't even writers. They were often just people who were in offices who were doing day-to-day admin for a department or a particular function of the university and they were being asked to update pages.
So if you're confronted by a blank page, there's no structure for them to follow. And consequently with that then you just get these weird and wonderful different kinds of design patterns that emerge for, there's 50 different versions to do the same thing.
We provided training. Now what we did see was there were people who'd immediately embraced that tool, found it much easier to use. And even now, even being far out, of course I look at the website and I think about it in very different ways from how the current people at Bath who are doing amazing jobs do. But the one thing I always really hopeful and still sparks joy for me is the fact that even though I know that they're in a much more challenging situation because the team's even smaller now, actually the content itself is relatively holding itself together and it's of a good quality, reasonable enough to deliver some of the things that are needed and that the focus potentially could be on the larger set piece services that are delivered. That said, like most universities, they've got a long way to go and those teams recognise that, but all I can do is praise them because they work in such challenging and difficult circumstances. Resource is not always forthcoming if you don't sit in IT or you don't sit in a specialised function or you're not in a project, budgets are tight.
Robert Mills
I remember this work, we're talking what like 5, 6, 7 years ago?
Rich Prowse
It’s probably longer than that actually.
Robert Mills
Longer than that? Like 2015, 16, maybe?
Rich Prowse
Yeah.
Robert Mills
Because I was in a previous role then and you wrote some articles and some webinars and touched on some of that work and I remember at the time it was so forward thinking, especially in that sector, we weren't seeing many people really doing that type of thing. Taking on that type of project, really building an author experience from the ground up. And to be able to do that whilst also doing all of the business as usual stuff that is needed in the environment where even like I say when you had buy-in for that project, but there's still an environment where there's restricted or dwindling resource and deadlines and again the compliance and all those things we mentioned earlier in the conversation, that's a huge achievement for everybody involved in that work to be able to achieve that author experience and to build Typecase in order to improve the content creation process internally and externally and therefore improve that student experience. Did it feel so forward thinking at the time and do you agree that it was, because certainly that was my perspective when we used to talk about it years ago,
Rich Prowse
There was a point and it only lasted for a really short period of time really in comparison to my career, where it felt like we were flying. There wasn't anything we couldn't do that we couldn't solve. And I know that sounds really arrogant, but it's not. We'd learned to think and work in an agile way. We'd learn to become a cohesive team. The other part of the team was developers and UX, which was quite unique in universities. Often they were split out at the time. So I guess it's a special time and I recognise that and when you're in the moment you don't really realise it. And actually looking back on it, I think we were probably the first team in higher education to take what was being done at GDS at the time, which was also very new and then apply it in higher education and actually make it work. That's not to say we didn't hit massive hurdles, we didn't hit massive political blockers. That doesn't mean we were successful all the time.
If you actually look at the kind of cost, the size of the team, the cost of actually some of these CMS that are implemented nowadays, which run into millions, I still think actually it's still value for money. They managed to get a team to design and build a CMS. They managed to get a team to effectively take a hundred thousand pages down to initially 3000. That's still a lot. Obviously we had support, there were departments who got involved, but the core team was doing a lot of that work. They were working with departments. If the department couldn't do it, they would have to take up some of the responsibilities. Not everybody was happy about it. That's fine, that's life. Was that our failure? Maybe sometimes. Was that sometimes them not understanding and getting involved? Probably. It's like any project, it's like a soap opera. It really is. There's always going to be that kind of character in the kind of distance causing what you perceive as causing chaos.
But actually if you put it as a cast, use that analogy. I think we were a really cohesive cast. We stayed like that for a long time. I think what's happened, and I see that in the other sector as a whole, the challenges have become more acute. That's not to say there are not teams now who are also flying. Ayala Gordon at Southampton and there are plenty of other teams who, like Dundee and there was Kent, they were also flying, they had seen what was going on at GDS independently and they also began to fly. And I think what those teams did was, and I remember my final boss at Bath, they’re positive disruptors with positive disruption comes some negative pushback because it's different, it's unusual, it's uncomfortable. Change is always uncomfortable unfortunately, but change if done in the right way can also be a really positive engine to help move an organisation forward, the experience forward and actually by doing that supporting students.
Robert Mills
It’s why I always used to ask you to write articles and do webinars for me because I think you had so much to share that actually was useful. For any sector, not just people working in higher ed, just the challenges you were faced with. They might be on a bigger scale within a university than other organisations certainly, but still similar themes of challenges and successes and processes. That's why I was always interested in the work you were doing and also credit to you were always so willing to share and that's why you mentioned Ayala Gordon there from University of Southampton. They've also very much worked out in the open and I think that's why they've been at a lot of conferences and they've shared a lot of public articles about their process and the learnings and the challenges and the blockers and all those sort of things. And it's really admirable to be so transparent with such complex work that's also again political and emotional and knotty. And so I really always appreciate when people are willing to share.
Rich Prowse
I think that's why I call it kind of soap opera because it is emotional. You are invested in this work. It is like all the work we do as designers, we become emotionally invested. But in higher education the wage is not really there. You are in a very, very specific environment and it does feel like your life's work at points. Now I'm first generation from my family to go to university. I understand how transformative university can be and you understand the connection you have between your experience and potentially the experience that other students have. And although you don't necessarily talk to students every day, you’re still on campus, I went back a little while ago, there is this energy you feel being amongst people who are, a lot of people obviously at university are not necessarily their teens, their late teens, early twenties, but there is that energy from them. There is that diversity of the population. It's made up of a massive set of different sets of people. So you get this kind of beautiful energy that comes out on campus and it's very difficult not to feel that and be inspired but also be very, very driven to do the best job you can with the time, resource and your own personal energy that you have.
Robert Mills
The list you just gave there, the types of students just made me think of actually whilst the audience is students, that's broad in itself, not incorrect, but it's broad. And so there's actually segments within that. That must be really hard when you are trying to put the student at the centre of that experience. It's almost like several experiences that you're designing for. This is also another big question. I'm going to throw it at you two thirds through the conversation, but how do you begin to approach being consistent where you need to be consistent but also being personalised and tailored to all those different kinds of segments and the needs within those segments?
Rich Prowse
I think it's one of the most difficult things that you can do and I don't think you're always successful at it. I think there's always, there's these trade-offs you have to make continually because you recognise the importance of the different needs of those groups and often they are very different. So if I come back to it, there's always that kind of mantra. It's based on user needs. Of course most people have core needs in the sense that they need to apply to university, they need to be able to enrol within the university, they need to be able to attend their courses, they need to be able to do their exams. They are universal use leads. But within that there, and this is why I don't like our language, we have acceptance criteria and it just kind of dehumanises the whole thing.
Some kind of like very clinical way that I'm not a big fan of. But within that there are very specific needs that particular groups have and you could probably make your life's work trying and actually those needs will shift as identities, as cultures develop, as technology develops. So it's almost a life work that can never be complete. So I think you are constantly having to make trade-offs with that continuing changing set of student population, but you're also having to balance that off against what can actually be achieved within the organisation from a kind of resource perspective, what can be technologically done? Because there were points where sometimes it did feel like everything was stuck together with sticky tape.
I think the tools that are available to user researchers, they're great. I think what tends to happen in universities, these questions tend to get framed in a very particular way. So either framed from a marketing perspective, so it's a marketing focus, or they get framed from a student satisfaction perspective. So it's surveys. It's a lot of quant data, not quality data. So we know what happened, but we don't always understand why. And then what tends to happen is when we try to understand why, I do not like workshops. I have seen workshops again and again be thrown by an individual who's in the group. So you've got a really strong voice and everybody's like, yeah. And that's not the truth because what's really going on or it's often thrown unintentionally by the lead. I think there are better tools. I love LEGO SERIOUS PLAY because there's good research about how that can help students articulate experiences better.
I think it's all about trade-offs, but it starts by at least having a good understanding of as much of the need as possible, who's going to come into that contact with that service the most and trying to work towards that.
I think what service design allows you to do is recognize that that channel may be one of the methods of delivery, but actually the needs might be better met through a different mode. For example, some students might be really, really comfortable with using a website to do something. There might be students with very specific needs, whether that's an access need or actually just because it's better to speak to somebody where it would be better for them to go and speak to someone and sit down. So I guess what I'm saying there is as designers working in this space, we do have more than one tool to deliver a service That doesn't always need to be the mantra of digital by default. By adopting that mantra that doesn't necessarily always best meet the needs of every student or every colleague actually. And we as designers need to recognise the edges of our ability to deliver experiences.
Robert Mills
Okay, Rich, I get it. Look, you're an expert answering questions you didn't know I was going to ask you. And you're also an expert at content design in UX within higher ed and lots of other areas as well. I get it. It's no surprise because of your knowledge and your experience that you have started a podcast and you have written or are writing a book. Let's start with the podcast. Can you tell us a bit about that, why you wanted to do it, what it's called, how we can listen to it and we'll link to it in the show notes as well of course.
Rich Prowse
Thank you. The podcast is called Designing for Students. It actually started out a series of conversations I'd been having with different people in higher education and they were really frustrated that they weren't able to easily connect to their peers or share ideas as they were doing in the past. But also actually what I was really noticing is design, particularly in the digital space, gets defined in, this is how we do design. There are lots of perspectives on design. Now some people may not call it design, but it is acting intentionally about how you do something. And I wanted to be able to bring those different voices to that podcast and explore what that might mean, how it could inform our own practice. So I've spoken to Ayala on the podcast and that was a very more what I call a very agile user-centred design approach using human-centred design principles.
But then we spoke to Lateesha, who is an equity and diversity and inclusion consultant, and she wouldn't call it design, but the nature of that conversation is like how do we intentionally make choices about how we include students so we achieve the goals of equity, diversity, and inclusion. That's still design, that's still making a choice, that's still being intentional about something. The point of the podcast is really to talk about design and its widest extent, learn from all the different voices around us who do design on a day-to-day basis, but may not talk about it in the language that we use and help to open up a dialogue and I guess part of that idea of being open to new ideas comes from the idea of education itself. Education is about being open to new ideas, being challenged, being made to think in different ways.
Robert Mills
It's a fantastic podcast and we'll link to it for sure. Tell me now about the book though. Can I buy it? When can I read it? Where is it?
Rich Prowse
He's putting pressure on me. So it is a labour of love and probably that's half the problem. I did set myself the goal of publishing this year. I really do hope I'm going to publish it this year. I think I want to be able to bring together a relatively short guide on the steps of how do we begin to design for students, but the principle behind it being ideas about how do we lead in that space? How do we make sure that student voice is heard? How do we ensure that we from an equity, diversity, and inclusion perspective properly understand the needs of those students but not also overburdening. And then onto just the basic nuts and bolts of how do we begin to think about service experiences? How do we visualise them and how we can use that as a tool to communicate and identify change and prioritise that change. So that's the nuts and bolts of it. Watch this space.
Robert Mills
Well love that. And if anybody can write a book on that topic, it's certainly you. It's my birthday in October, so I'll expect my signed copy by then and I can be your, is that the, I can be your accountability buddy, aka a professional nagger between now and then as much as you need nagging, you let me know.
Rich Prowse
I need to be nagged more. It's not that I don't want to write it, but sometimes I think we've had this conversation, you finish work and your energy levels are not there. But also you've got to get into a routine. And when I'm in a routine, I'm doing well, but sometimes you get knocked out of that routine and then you come back to it two, three weeks later you're like, what was I doing? You're like, is this even a book? Is this a set of ideas? What's that word for it?
Robert Mills
Imposter syndrome.
Rich Prowse
Imposter syndrome. That's it. It's the imposter syndrome kicking in.
Robert Mills
You're certainly not an imposter in this space. Right. We've got a few minutes left and I've got one more question. It’s the one I always end with, so we're going to put the spotlight on you now, Rich, can you give a time when you've been the audience or you've been the user and what have you watched or read or listened to or experienced or interacted with that might have provoked a reaction or stirred an emotion? And it can be work-related or otherwise.
Rich Prowse
Okay, so probably one that's evoked to reaction is, and you'll know this Rob, from my passion, one of my things that I find absolute delight with is Disney. When I am the user of their services, because they are, I am continually in awe of their ability to thread experiences that are both digital and physical together and deliver that in such a way that it is consistent to the point where when it is not consistent, even the smallest thing, it stands out like a sore thumb. So a good example of that was I was lucky enough back in 2019, no I am going back to Disney to be one of the first people to get into Galaxy Star Wars edge.
And that is probably the most immersive experience you can probably have. It's literally you are in Florida, which is a flat piece of land as far as I could see. And then suddenly you are surrounded by mountains and you are in the Star Wars universe, which is also weird. There are noises, there are plants that are not native to Florida. You are in a completely immersive experience. And then I remember going on, you effectively can use your app to book your time on the ride, which then you go on and I remember the one thing that you suspend your disbelief, the one thing that brought me back into the world was obviously behind all of this stuff, it's just ordinary offices, ordinary janitor spaces, et cetera, was like they'd open a door, you'd just see a cast member open the door behind that would be like kitchen cabinets.
And you're like, but I'm meant to be in Star Wars. They don't have kitchen cabinets that look like that, do they? So yeah, I guess I think we have so much to learn from others, like I said, the podcast, other experiences. I think they are so good at knowing how to weave that together. And it starts fundamentally with the user. It develops through storytelling and everything is kind of geared around that. And I think there's so much we can learn from even that experience about how we can make experiences better in lots of different settings. So yeah, that's my answer.
Robert Mills
Love it. I was thinking you're going to go Lego or Disney and you didn't disappoint, so thank you, rich. Appreciate that. And I know what you mean. We were in Florida last year and the whole, it is immersive because there's certain smells. People are like when you go on Pirates of the Caribbean, the water smells a certain way, the hotels smell a certain way, then it's the sounds and then it's everything. Definitely. It is immersive and it touches all senses. So, brill answer. That's what I was expecting. That's what I hoped for.
Rich Prowse
Well, yeah, well Pirates of the Caribbean, I love Pirates of the Caribbean. Oh yeah, don't get me started. We've run out of time as well.
Robert Mills
Maybe we'll start a Disney podcast. Why not?
Rich Prowse
Yeah we should. Let's do it.
Robert Mills
Why not? We have run out of time, Rich. It's always a pleasure to chat to you in any capacity at any time about any topic. And I'm so very grateful that you carved some time out of your busy day to chat to me today. And I'm very much looking forward to getting this episode out there for everybody to listen to. Thank you so much.
Rich Prowse
Well, thank you so much for having me, Rob, and I hope that people found that useful and just if you ever want to reach out and get in contact, have a chat, I'm always around and it's great to hear from people in HE and yeah, just thank you so much.
Robert Mills
You’re welcome. We'll stick your preferred contact details in the show notes and then make that easy for people to get in touch.
Rich Prowse
Brilliant. Cool.
Robert Mills
There we go. Thank you, Rich.
Rich Prowse
Thank you. Speak to you soon. Bye.
Robert Mills
Thank you for listening to the Fourth Wall Content podcast. All episodes, transcripts and show notes can be found ay fourthwallcontent.com. Good luck with your content challenges and I hope you can join us next time. Bye for now.
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