Robert Mills
Welcome to the Fourth Wall Content Podcast. I'm your host, Robert Mills.
Actors address the audience directly by breaking the fourth wall in theatre and film. This podcast explores the fourth wall in a different sense.
We’ll share techniques, strategies, and tactics to forge meaningful connections with audiences, users, and stakeholders.
Our conversations with experienced and innovative content, UX and research practitioners will uncover the details of real projects with lessons learned along the way and outcomes of the work too.
Each episode will provide you with practical insights and actionable takeaways to help you meet user needs, connect with customers in a genuine way, or engage stakeholders meaningfully. Let’s get to it.
Welcome back to another episode of the Fourth Wall Content Podcast. I know I say I'm always excited about my guests, but it's true. And it's definitely true today because my guest today is Lauren Pope, who I've known for a long time. I've had the pleasure of meeting and I've learned so much from so I'm really excited to chat to Lauren today.
Lauren is an independent content strategist for charities, arts and culture organisations and nonprofits. She's worked in content and digital since 2007 and has delivered projects for some of the world's biggest brands, including Adidas, American Express, Microsoft and Tetra Pack. She started her own consultancy, La Pope in 2018 to focus on helping organisations that put people and planet before profit, build digital experiences that make the world a little bit better, fairer or more beautiful. Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
Lauren Pope
Thank you so much for having me, Rob. It's really lovely to be here.
Robert Mills
That's such an amazing bio because of the sort of work that you're doing and why you want to do that work and work with those people. I know we're going to dig into some of that today, but I just love the kind of the values and the meaningfulness behind that bio and the work that you do. So I'm really pleased to have you here with me today.
Lauren Pope
Oh, thank you. I'm just embarrassed now.
Robert Mills
Sorry, I'll try not to be too much of a fan, but you know I'm a huge fan.
Lauren Pope
Well, it goes both ways. It goes both ways, definitely.
Robert Mills
Anything you write or share. I'm like, I must do that. I must read that. Okay, I'm going to start with the question I always start with. And that is, who is the audience or the user that is going to be the focus of the conversation or the project that we are going to talk about today?
Lauren Pope
Yeah, okay. Good question. So the audience for this piece of work, I'm going a little bit off track with this, maybe from what some of the other guests on the podcast have spoken about, but my audience is an overloaded content team who had too many things to do and not enough time to do them.
Robert Mills
Been there, done that, absolutely got the t-shirt multiple times. I can already think of lots of scenarios on my side where I've been part of those teams for sure. But I'd love to know more about the project or the projects that you've got in mind where you've experienced that kind of scenario and stuff. Maybe you can set the scene with some kind of context for where we can take the conversation.
Lauren Pope
Yeah, definitely. I think this is quite universal. I think a lot of clients might listen to this and think, Oh yeah, Lauren's talking about me. Because it is a really common scenario. It just seems to be a fairly intrinsic part of working in content that you're going to be dealing with more than you could ever possibly hope to actually complete.
This particular example that I wanted to talk about, they are actually also from an interesting and slightly left field point of view. They're a team working on internal content. So they're an internal comms and content team for a really large charity. So their audience is thousands of employees across the country working in different services, working in really different contexts. When I first started working with them, they were kind of reassessing this absolutely massive site that had evolved over years and years and years into this kind of gigantic beast. They felt really like they were playing content whack-a-mole, kind of constantly reacting to these things popping up, demanding their attention. So people are asking for new content, for a new thing that they were working on, finding old content that urgently needed to be updated or deleted, seeing poor quality content popping up that a different team had created and needed to be fixed. Also, loads of usability issues, accessibility issues, and it was just way, way, way too much.
So I started working with them as a consultant because they just wanted someone to come in and kind of stand alongside them while they tried to fix this problem with this gigantic unruly site that was really getting away from them.
Robert Mills
Also really familiar, though I've never heard it described as content whack-a-mole and that's my new favourite phrase. Absolutely. All those things around, you know, it grew into a beast. It became unruly. There were accessibility issues. You know, things need to be archived, things are out of date. That's a high volume of problems and challenges. On their own, you know, that's a lot of work, but collectively that's a huge amount of work. Was there any one thing that made them just think, we need help like now? It sounds like those things were just happening over a long period of time. So what was the actual thing that made them think, we need help and we need to get the help from outside to kind of come in and help us?
Lauren Pope
I think it was partially about realising the risk. The fact that having this out of date content was putting the organisation at risk because, you know, this was a really significant way that staff and the organisation got information about how to do their job, how to kind of support the people that use their services to a really high standard. And if they weren't able to access a single reliable source of truth, if they could find out of date documents, if they could find old information, then yeah, that was a really significant risk for them. And it was something that they really wanted to tackle before it became a problem and before it kind of led to any significant impact for a level of service that they could deliver for people in the community.
Robert Mills
And that kind of risk is the impact of some or all of those challenges. Were there any other kind of challenges or any other, was there any further understanding of the impact and risks that they would experience should they continue the way they were going and how did you kind of maybe learn about those and uncover those sorts of things?
Lauren Pope
Yeah, we kind of learnt about quite a few different challenges that were having a big impact throughout the organisation. We did a big discovery phase, which was great. So that consisted to start off with an audit of the existing content. So having kind of a big look through everything, firstly, just to understand where everything was and how it fit together because it wasn't as straightforward as you would think you could navigate for a lot of the content, but it wasn't really clear how much there was. Also just having a big look at some of the data to show what are people actually using and who is accessing it as well and for what reasons.
Then we also did stakeholder interviews with a lot of the different subject matter experts and a lot of the teams who were contributing or creating content for the site as well to understand about their needs and their challenges and things like that. And obviously we did lots of user surveys and interviews as well just to find out from people in the organisation who were the audience for this. What they liked, what they didn't like, what was missing, what they were using on a day-to-day basis just to kind of build up that picture.
There were quite a few really interesting learnings throughout this. There was the really obvious one that there was a huge amount of content on the site. Not all of it was relevant. Not all of it was user-friendly in terms of the format and a lot of it was out of date. But I think doing the user interviews helped to kind of understand the impact of it a bit more because it was harder for people to find what they needed and that had a real impact on how likely people were to use the site and also how likely they were to trust it as well. Because if they went in and they could see that the last time something was updated was 10 years ago, then you're not going to put your kind of trust in that. You're not going to rely on it and the next time you need something, you're less likely to go back.
We also found out that other parts of the organisation were creating their own sites to plug gaps in the existing organisation-wide one, which in some ways that's great that people are taking the initiative and they're doing that. But on the other hand, it meant that some really good information that they put on there was being siloed from other parts of the organisation, that knowledge, that expertise wasn't being shared, but it also meant there was a risk. So for example, if they uploaded a document on there for people to access to make it quicker, but then it got updated at the central level, like how would they know? How would people access the right version? It was just a big disconnect.
The other kind of interesting thing was finding – this was pretty obvious, but we saw that the site was organised around the central departments in the organisation, which is a really common way of doing things and I didn't think that that probably wasn't very user-friendly, which was kind of borne out by the research. You had to know the organisation inside out to be able to find the answer to a question. You had to know which department was in charge of that thing and often that wasn't clear. A lot of the time also we found that multiple teams would have information and perspective to provide on a specific issue. So on the site, as it was, you might have to go to three different parts of the site to get the full picture on a particular issue, which was just really painful. And a lot of users probably wouldn't have realised that they needed to do that.
PDFs were a massive problem. Obviously, PDFs are always a problem, but with an added complexity, we saw people downloading them, saving them locally, which meant they were missing out on important updates when those documents changed.
Then the other thing which kind of came back and became a really big issue later on was that there was one area of content on this website, which the team that I was working with didn't own. And this was one of the areas of the site that was the most out of date and also had the biggest risk associated with it. But it just wasn't under that team's control. So not a lot that they could do about it historically, but it was something that they really wanted to try and do something about going forward because it was so critical for users of the site. So it was a big mess.
Robert Mills
Yeah, I mean, it sounds like it when you covered ownership, governance, workflow, silos, kind of accessibility, there was a whole wealth of challenges there. Really interesting to understand the process for uncovering those challenges and then actually the impact or the potential impact those challenges were having.
I definitely want to come on to, okay, you now know all that stuff and what next and kind of talking about moving towards fixing things and solutions and things like that. But just before we do, I always find it really fascinating with the stakeholder interviews and the subject experts and contributors and kind of bringing them into the work and the project. So clearly somebody within the organisation understood that this was a problem that needed to be resolved but did the people you have to kind of do those stakeholder interviews with, were they also at the point of like, yes, we need help, you know, I'll tell you everything, I'll be honest because we need to make this better. Or was there some resistance? It's always a very fascinating relationship because content is political. You know, people do take a lot of ownership over it and a lot of pride over it, even if they're aware that things maybe could be improved. Sometimes the path of least resistance is still the one that they would prefer. How was that kind of bringing in those different stakeholders for that part of the process?
Lauren Pope
Yeah, there were really significant differences between the stakeholders we spoke to. Some, you know, the minute you spoke to them, they just completely got it. They understood exactly what the issues were and why it needed to change. And you could see that they were going to be really on board with it, which was great. And then there were other people who weren't resistant or difficult in any way, shape or form. But you could see that, you know, they felt that they put a lot of effort and time into their content and into trying to kind of communicate in the organisation and just felt a little bit unclear about why things needed to change when they tried so hard. So I'll probably end up talking more about this later on, but it kind of showed that the ongoing stakeholder engagement needed to be a really big part of the project to make it work in the long term and to operationaliSe the strategy successfully. Because we needed to have those people on board, we needed them to understand the strategy, to believe in it and to be willing to kind of get behind it in the long run.
Robert Mills
I think the word ongoing is really important there because certainly my experience is quite common for there to be a lot of effort at the start of a project to engage. We must engage people, bring them along with us. And so there's engagement activities, whatever they may be at the start or early on in a project. And then it's almost just like, right, that's it. We've done the engagement. Let's just carry on now. But actually, some people are not engaged and become engaged. Some people are really engaged and you lose them. Some people kind of, it's a bit more ebb and flow and, you know, depending on the content or the work or the issue. So I think it's, you know, framing it around ongoing engagement is really important because it's not just, you know, do it at the start and everybody's engaged for the duration. It's a huge component of the work that we do to, you know, content aside, just that kind of relationship building and people management is a huge part of it and definitely is ongoing.
Lauren Pope
Yeah, it's enormous. And actually, it's one of the things if I could go back and start this project again, I would put even more time into those relationships with the stakeholders and the subject matter experts. We had a little period where we were doing a pilot project where I think we probably went a little bit quiet with those stakeholders and maybe they forgot a little bit that this was going on. I wish we'd kind of kept up the pace with the communications throughout that.
One of the amazing things that happened as a result of that is one of the members of the team put together a really incredible communications plan and they put loads of effort into communicating up to leaders within the organisation so that they can kind of get a bit more authority behind the message and help other people understand why this was so important and to show that it was a really big organisational priority as well. So yes, super important thing that I think there's always room to get better with, always a place to kind of improve your practice when it comes to influencing people, persuading them, but I guess also just understanding them better and seeing how you can help them, not just constantly trying to get them on board with what you want to do.
Robert Mills
It's an easy trap to fall into because if we go into thinking, well, we're making things better, we're improving things, but better in what sense and how is it better for them and how is it improving things for them and understanding those individual needs and priorities is a key part of that. I feel like stakeholder engagement is a whole podcast series in itself.
Lauren Pope
Totally. And I should say with this actually that one of the stakeholders I interviewed, she basically gave me the strategy. I remember it was a really great conversation. She was one of the people that really got it and she said this thing about what she thought we should do, which really did end up being the basis for the strategy. It ended up becoming the basis of the information architecture in some ways as well because she had such an incredible insight into what the organisation needed. So definitely worth listening to people.
Robert Mills
Actually, I think that's probably a good way to take the conversation today in terms of, okay, you've done the research that you outlined, you've understood this number of challenges and the impact or the potential impact. Where do you go from there in terms of fixing it seems a bit downplaying it, but how do you fix it? What was the next step in terms of taking all that knowledge and insight and then moving forward with the work and the project?
Lauren Pope
So the next step was moving into coming up with the strategy and I did that through lots of collaborative working sessions with the immediate team that I was working with. We looked through all of that data and insight that I gathered in the first phase of the project and we came together to think, okay, right, these are the key issues, challenges, opportunities, and how are we going to address it. I think what we realised at this point was it was just too big. And there was absolutely no way we could fix everything. So our strategy had to be really focused on narrowing down and just saying no to a lot of things and deferring a lot of things.
Part of that was about giving the site a really clearly defined purpose, because one of the issues we found was that there was just too much going on. It was trying to be everything to everyone in the organisation and it couldn't do that. So we realised there were a few different types of content which we could eliminate to make things a lot simpler, to make it work better for the user and also make it more manageable. But I think we also realised that we needed to not try and redo the whole site in one go and focusing more on just resolving a few key issues to start off with and then spread the rest of the work out over a longer period of time.
Robert Mills
You just covered another common and very interesting dynamic of a project, which is this idea around prioritisation and saying no. Because again, even if people understand the purpose behind the work and the strategy and the hopeful outcomes of the work, it can still be hard to hear no, and it could be no, never doing it. No, not now, but at some point or no, but it's the next priority or no until this or unless that. There's lots of different reasons and ways of saying no and what that could mean for the work and the content and the people involved. Also the top priority for somebody might not be the top priority for the broader strategy or organisation. How did you find saying no, regardless of whether it was no, never, no, not now, or what that looked like, but how did you find saying no and sharing priorities that maybe didn't align with individual priorities across the organisation?
Lauren Pope
A big part of it came down to looking at where the team had the most power and the most agency. So something that I'm a really big advocate for is this thing called the model of control, influence and concern. It comes from Stephen Covey's book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I have to say, I haven't actually read their book. I found the model in the Hyper Island Toolbox, which is the dirty little secret of every facilitator who has ever facilitated a workshop. But I find this a really useful thing to use with teams to help them work out where they should be focusing their time, what's really like their lane. So this was really useful for working out where they could say no with a lot of confidence.
The idea behind that model is that you kind of have a list of everything that you could do, like all the stuff in the game of whack-a-mole, everything you're being asked to do, everything you want to do, everything you're worried about, all the things on the backlog, and then you start to kind of break it down into three categories.
Concern, that's the circle where you don't have any power, where you don't have any agency, where you can't really make any change. So that's stuff that you should really be ignoring as much as you can. So for that, it was things like we couldn't do anything to change the fact that lots of the people in the organisation had a low level of digital kind of skills, like that's a much bigger problem than that team could tackle. We couldn't do anything about the fact that they were tied into a specific technical platform for the site because that kind of belonged to IT and there was no way to change that. We couldn't do anything about some of the wider cultural issues in the organisation that this played into.
The next circle is influence. So that's where you can make a change, but you can only do it in collaboration or through other people. So you've got a little bit of kind of power and agency, but it comes with somebody else. So that's somewhere you want to spend some of your time, but not too much because it can be, it's not often, not often an area where you can be massively affected because you're reliant on other people, but it's definitely worth putting some time into. So for this project, that was things like I was saying earlier about getting that time in with senior leadership to tell them about the learnings from the project, tell them about the implications of some of the things that were, whereas they were at the start of the project so that we could kind of enlist them as helpers to get the message out to other parts of the organisation, get people involved, but also so that we could feed in some of those things from the circle of concern that actually the people in the CD leadership team could do something about.
There was also that area of content that I mentioned earlier that the team didn't own. So that was definitely an area where there was some influence. We could go to the people who were responsible for that content and say, look, this is what we've learned. We'd really love to help you make this more user friendly. We'd love to get involved. Can we partner up on this? And that was successful. That was something that with the right approach, that theme was definitely open to. And we talked a lot about that involvement with the subject matter experts and stakeholders. That was another kind of key area where the relationship with the influence was really important because later on in the project, we need to work with those people really closely to get them to look at their content, see if it was up to date, what we could change about it. So super important kind of use of influence as well.
Then the final area, that's the circle of control. So that's where you've got kind of power and where you've got agency. I think it's also an area where you have to think about what your boundaries are and where you're going to be firm about things. So where your no is going to be a real, a proper no. And to feel really comfortable about taking control and being definitive about things. So for this project, we realised that actually the kind of stuff where they could be very decisive and where they could kind of power ahead were firstly coming up with a new information architecture and a new content model to make the site more usable, accessible and consistent. That was firmly in their lane. So that's something that they went ahead with and did brilliantly. We realised this kind of make it more controllable. They could start with a pilot project rather than try and kind of tackle everything all at once. And that again was really successful. They just kind of picked off one topic in the site, redid all that content and learned loads from it to take forward into the next phase.
Another thing that they did that I thought was just really amazing and that I was really pleased to see was they decided to stop working on anything else for six months. So they got permission from higher up in the organisation to kind of down tools on the other things that they were doing at the time to free up time for this really strategically important project, which I think that's such an incredible thing to do and so difficult as well. Like to stop doing that reactive work to say to other people who were kind of relying on you and asking if you can help, actually, there's something that's more important. It was really challenging, but it was definitely the right thing to do. I think that was kind of how the model made out and how they know and working out where the boundaries were was really helpful for the piece of work.
Robert Mills
It's such a pragmatic approach to saying no to having those potentially awkward and uncomfortable conversations to prioritising work. I think the fact that they could pause everything else for six months shows buying from a senior level and I'm sure that kind of filters down and that really helps with getting other people on board engaged and things like that.
But I just love that actually you weren't just saying no, you know, you've done your research, you've got your evidence, you've got your insights, you've got the strategy, you know, you had all that stuff there to help guide it and then that kind of framework or model perhaps of concern, influence and control would really help frame those conversations and give people the confidence to say what they need to say. I'm not saying it was easy to do, but it sounds like quite a simplistic model to kind of get people on board with or to understand or to start putting into practice. I'm sure it's difficult to figure all the things out and where do they fit and then what do I need to do with them? But just the fact that like how brilliantly you kind of explained it there, it's really pragmatic in terms of somebody else maybe being able to take that away and think, right, actually, you know, what, you know, where should we be concerned? What, you know, where can we influence? What can we control and actually start to do their own prioritisation themselves?
Lauren Pope
I think that's one of the things that I like best about it is really simple. It's an exercise that you can do, you know, for yourself pretty quickly just sit down with a notepad and a piece of paper and start writing a list and you can kind of tear through this pretty fast. You can use it to kind of look at your whole career. You can use it to look at a project, it’s quite flexible. But I think the next step is really crucial because just having a model and writing this stuff down and working out what's in which circle, like that's important and you'll get some insight from it. But it's actually following through and being brave enough to start saying no to things, that is really hard. It was really challenging for this team, which is part of the reason why I just think they did such an amazing job by actually following through by realising that they had to do these difficult things and then just committing to it because it is much easier to carry on doing things the way that you've always done it. You know, it's comfortable. It doesn't rock the boat. It doesn't upset anyone else. But probably not the best way to kind of make a significant change and make a really kind of ambitious improvement in what you're doing in the long run. So I think hats off to anyone who can follow through with, you know, difficult decisions and really like truly prioritising and holding a boundary like that.
Robert Mills
As these conversations started to happen and these decisions were made and the things were being prioritised or not and all this kind of work you outlined as that started to, as you say, be followed through and actually be put into practice and so on. Did that help with other people who maybe were less engaged or not quite on board of things? Did that help them kind of get aligned around that and those priorities and things? Did it have a positive kind of effect on others?
Lauren Pope
Yeah, I think some of those no but conversations where you tell somebody that you're not going to do something and you but you explain what you can do as an alternative or like no because conversations where you're like we're not going to do that because of X, Y and Z, they were really helpful being able to show somebody all that kind of insight and work that had gone into the beginning of the project, show them all this kind of evidence, show them these quotes from people around the organisation.
I think what we found was that when you presented people really with the data and evidence, quite often we were shocked by how much it changed their perspective and how easy it was to get them to kind of get in line when they saw the strategy and they understood the rationale behind it. It was really important for us to have that story that shows the working out show we're suggesting Y because of X and Z.
Robert Mills
It definitely sounds like there was a lot of transparency in not just what you're doing, but why you're doing it and how it would impact on individuals across the organisation. A few times you mentioned showing them the strategy and getting them to understand the importance of that and what the strategy is and why it exists and so on. Is there anything you can talk about around, again, I know that projects aren't linear and I keep saying next steps, next steps and what happened next, but actually once you've got that strategy, how did you put it into practice?
Lauren Pope
Yeah, well, as I mentioned before, we started off with a pilot project. We found one good candidate as a topic that we thought, yeah, this is something we know a lot about. We've got a really good relationship with the subject matter experts for that topic, so let's start there. So we started just kind of had a bit of a theory about what kind of process would work and we tested it out on the pilot. So yeah, and the idea we thought we would have a workshop with the subject matter experts where we'd get them to look at their existing content, tell us what they thought we could get rid of, tell us what they knew needed to be updated, tell us about things that they might need to create, and then we would go away and start putting all of that into action.
It worked pretty well in practice, but we found kind of a few little niggles with that really. One was that it was super, super time consuming. There was no way we could kind of replicate that for every topic because there were just so many of them. So we had to kind of make some adjustments. The other thing that came through was just thinking about how we would manage all the admin associated with this. Like anybody who's worked on a big redesign project knows that keeping track of all the pages and all the copy. It's not easy by any means at all. So we had to look at how we were doing that as well and get really nerdy actually with how we were going to use the Microsoft suite of tools to do that, using kind of a weird mix of like SharePoint and tools that I don't have a lot of expertise or experience in at all. But luckily the team were kind of really good at using and putting in place and using in a good way that kind of streamlined everything.
Then kind of post pilot, we would find the process again and started going out to kind of lots of different topic owners at one time to kind of start the process of getting them to check their content. Then started the rewriting from there. And that was also the point as well that it became apparent that the team needed to shift their priorities to really make time for this if they were going to get through it. So that was where the decision was made actually, we're going to stop working on anything else. And this is really going to be the big area focus for us. But I think it was for the next six months or something like that.
Robert Mills
I'm not sure if there's anything you are able to share, depending on the stage of the work and the organisation involved. But are you aware of any outcomes of the work that you've kind of outlined today in this chat?
Lauren Pope
The team is still working on this project. It's definitely a long term one. I think one of the outcomes that I can talk about is that I know they've got their kind of list of pages down from I think we had over 10,000 pages when I first did the audit and the final count of pages for the new site is only 400, which that's an incredible achievement to kind of whittle everything down to get rid of that much dead weight and also just identifying all the stuff that didn't need to be there anymore.
I think also as well the kind of new content types that we designed for the system as well, they were kind of really significant. We got amazing feedback from from users on those when we tested them. Oh, and the new information architecture. I should definitely talk about that. We did some really good testing on that. So some kind of tree testing, which had like a really good success rate. I think it was around kind of 80 or 90% of tasks that people could complete successfully in that test compared to like a very low success rate for the site that was live at the time.
Robert Mills
Given the amount of work that you've outlined today, I feel like we've only scratched the surface of what you did do. And there could be so much more I'm sure to kind of talk about, but we are fast approaching the end of our our time together today. And I always like to finish with getting the person I'm trying to to think about when they were the audience or the user. So thinking about that, can you share something that you've watched or read or listened to? Doesn't have to be recently that you that might have provoked a reaction or stirred an emotion and it could be work related or otherwise.
Lauren Pope
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's one book that I've had in mind throughout this project, which is Beth Dunn's Cultivating Content Design. It's just amazing. It's such a fantastic book. It's so short, but it just packs in so much goodness. And what would it really help me with this project was just thinking about what to say no to about how to kind of narrow focus and also about how to kind of use influence within the organisation as well. I found the concept of surface work that Beth talked about really helpful. So that's the kind of slightly more simple side of content that you can let go of and that you know where you can let other people have control and provide them with a bit of support. I found that really useful and like that's definitely part of the strategy for going forward is after this kind of period of pulling in control and everything happening in the team to actually start to kind of dole back out some of that responsibility and to start acting more like a centre for excellence for content in the organisation and help other people understand how to use the new site, how to work with new content types and kind of setting them up so that they can create and manage their own content with success and the team doesn't get into that position again of whack-a-mole where they're responsible for everything. Yeah, so I love that book. I recommend it a lot.
Robert Mills
We’ll definitely link to that on the show notes. And the other thing I'd like to link to, because there's been a theme of this chat today and I know some of the other sort of presentations and articles and things that you've shared more recently, just the theme around saying no but within kind of context and structure and saying no in a meaningful way and actually the whole process of prioritisation and you published and it really is a must read. You published a guide for prioritisation for content teams and I'd love to link to that as well because I think it really takes a lot of what you said today and gives a bit more kind of detail and example and things like that. So we'll link to that because you share some fantastic practical approaches to a very thorny task of prioritisation.
Lauren Pope
Oh, thank you so much. That was a bit of a labour of love. I wrote that in a bit of a, like a thinking of actually a completely different project to the one I've been talking about today where prioritisation was just a massive challenge. I wasn't sure how many other teams and kind of people would relate to it but I've been really shocked by how many people said that they found it useful and found, you know, said that this was something they were really struggling with too. So yeah, I'm really pleased to hear that it resonated with people.
Robert Mills
Yeah, absolutely. We're definitely link to that. Lauren, I hate to say that we've come to the end but unfortunately we have. Thank you so much for sharing those insights and kind of your process and your thinking and the outcomes and all those good things. Even if somebody's working on a very different sort of size or type of project, I have no doubt there's transferable knowledge and tips in there for sure. And as I said at the start, and I meant it, you write stuff with such clarity and in such a helpful way so I'm just absolutely thrilled that you spent some time chatting to me today about some of your work and some of your processes. Thank you so much.
Lauren Pope
Oh, well, thank you so much for having me. It's so amazing to be part of this series of podcasts. I really love listening to them. I love how you're like showing kind of real case studies, but are often quite difficult for people to share, but it's so interesting to get a look at this stuff that goes on, you know, behind the scenes and under the hood. So yeah, really honoured to be part of it.
Robert Mills
Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. Well, hopefully I can speak to you again soon, but for not, thank you.
Lauren Pope
Yeah I hope so too.
Robert Mills
And thank you everybody for listening.
Thank you for listening to the Fourth Wall Content podcast. All episodes, transcripts and show notes can be found ay fourthwallcontent.com. Good luck with your content challenges and I hope you can join us next time. Bye for now.
